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| | Posted by | Message | | Eagle Pit Shack Guy | Posted on 6/22/2010 3:35:04 PM
I thought maybe we should start a completely new thread to discuss this, as it is a concern to all those who are fans of sprint cars.
This article Jason Orth's Pace Lap for 6/22/10 is a really good read (as always).
I was a regular attendee at Midwest when the original 360 sprint car engine rules were brought into effect. A great decision, but as always happens teams started to "push the envelope", especially in the grey areas. That brought about rules changes, which brought about more "pushing" and more rules changes, etc.
Guess what, spending went right back out of control again. Yes, I know the line from 'The Road Warrior' that goes "Speed is just a question of money. How fast can you afford to go??". And I know it applies in sprint cars VERY specifically.
What can we do to stem the tide that is so rampant all over the country, leading to smaller and smaller car counts in the sprinters??
Eagle Raceway; the fastest 1/3-mile dirt track in the country.
Eagle Raceway's website
| | highvoltage247 | Posted on 6/22/2010 3:38:57 PM
Not real familar with the engine rules, are you required to run a spec motor or just a 360 in rule? I know i will get beat to death for saying this but what about a crate of some kind?
Michael Boettger
| | Deet | Posted on 6/22/2010 4:20:26 PM
I'm thinking that for the truly weekly racer (one who NEVER races specials) maybe a crate would be an option. But for the guys that like to be at least semi-competitive when the ASCS comes to town (either Regional or National series) a crate motor would put them at such a disadvantage that you'd question why they were even out there.
Instead of focusing on the engines, is there a way to unhook the cars so that having a monster engine isn't really an advantage? Harder tires, smaller wings....something? That way when the specials occur, it's a matter of swapping out some easily replaced (and comparatively cheap) parts and not an entire engine. Or is it a case that no matter what the limitations if you've got the power you'll find a way to get it to the ground?
I've come to Sprint racing just in the last few years, and I really like them, it would be a shame to see them fade away like the true Super Late Models that I grew up with.
| | RedC | Posted on 6/22/2010 4:50:52 PM
One way to lower engine costs would be to eliminate the wings; doing so would at least diminish the premium on power necessary to push the wing through the air. Plus, the cost of the wings vanishes.(Let's not get into the "wings as a safety feature" argument- it won't hold water.) A compression rule might also help, the idea being to permit less engine freshening. Maybe prohibiting exotic alloy valve trains? A narrower right rear tire?
Then, having cut costs, we turn to increasing revenue: $1000 to win is not a competitive incentive nowadays, at least not for sprints.
Having said all this, a possible response would be that a non-wing, lower compression, lower RPM car would not be competitive for ASCS, etc. Well, if you can get 30 or 35 teams who can compete on a closer-to-break-even basis with these rules, they'll care a lot less about running ASCS or NCRA.
The best part of all this is that non-wing racing is usually closer,more competitive, and more likely to sell more tickets.
"Lose the Wings..."
| | sprint13f | Posted on 6/22/2010 5:05:59 PM
It really does not matter what engine rule you have. The teams with more money will spend the extra money to find the power. There needs to be a right and left rear tire rule. Same RR tire all night and make them hard. The wing vs non wing is complete BS. You would just get guys with huge motors out powering again. They may be less hooked up but they can still hook them up. Ask Jeff Lowery how it feels to fun with the 410's at I-80.
My opinion as a former driver/owner.
hangloose
| | rstar | Posted on 6/22/2010 7:15:12 PM
I agree the tires need to be harder and maybe narrower, plus stiffen the sidewall. The wings, because everyone has one, could be unhooked by limiting the wing angle. If you've noticed in the past couple of years, the wings are essentially standing on end, locking down the rearend. I love non-wings, but wings do provide a safety factor for flips by absorbing most of the energy.
I know Ivan Tracy has been promoting a new class of engines that would be considerably cheaper than the ones being ran now. I like his concept and desire to make things cheaper. The only problem I see is Eagle would be the only track to run them, similar to what Holt County sprints encounter. If you can't run them anywhere else and you wish to ocassionally run elsewhere, you now have to have 2 engines, which is even more expensive.
Another idea which is easily monitored is the gear size. By limiting the gear ran will help in minimizing the advantage of a strong motor.
Bottom line is everything is cyclical. I remember in the 70's when sprint car racing in Nebraska was pretty much non-existent, other than specials. Late model racing became the prevalent class during this time period until the 360 concept was intorduced by some innovative Husker racers. Low car counts is not an Eagle issue. It's a national issue because sprint car counts are down virtually everywhere. It's a direct reflection of the economy. When things get better, more people will be silly enough to put their money in sprint cars once again, because they once again will have expendable income to blow on fun and frivolous things.
Maybe the federal goverment could help! I can't believe I just said that! 
EDIT: Okay, I just read Jason's article, after I flew off the handle. I'm in agreement with Jason 100%. Please read his article.
Edited on: 6/22/2010 7:15:12 PM
| | 2dogsracing | Posted on 6/22/2010 8:13:10 PM
Go IMCA, dont no if it would help count but costs would be reduced & the "average" regulars engine would be legal. Use the 7200 max rpm track option and you wont see the same couple running away with it every week. Just my 1/2 cent.
| | Ryan Tunks | Posted on 6/22/2010 8:14:58 PM
Jason's article made me a little teary-eyed.
Honestly, I love Sprint Car racing so very much. I would hate to see a different right rear or restriced engine rules. More rules takes away the special magic that is Sprint Car racing.
I wonder why more teams don't race Eagle weekly. Why not the the 82 or even the young 12 that lives right down the road? Why not the 2? Where's the 31 been? Even the 1M and the 18 or the 13 ... why do they travel so far away instead of running right here?
Is it the purse? Nebraska has the cars and teams, they just don't show up at Eagle.
I love Sprint Car racing.
The Midwest Speedway Preservation Society
| | RedC | Posted on 6/22/2010 8:27:56 PM
Okay, we have some good ideas being proposed. Ryan, the engine/tire restrictions are, of course, aimed at reducing costs. Apparently, racers are their own worst enemies when it comes to trying to outspend the other guys, just to gain a tenth or two. I do have a question, though. If the wing angles are lowered, thereby reducing the downforce, why have the wings in the first place? If they then exist only for safety purposes, you could construct some type of , well, I hate to say it, "roof" over the cockpit. It might look like a 1970 CAE supermod. Nah, let's not do that.
"Lose the Wings..."
| | Moses | Posted on 6/22/2010 9:04:31 PM
Ryan,
It might be possible that teams want a change of scenery, or a perceived higher level of competition.
Another reason could be the compensation for running Eagle is no longer enough to keep teams home, regardless of traveling costs.
Knoxville does provide more incentive to run there weekly than most tracks. The lure of competition and better payouts could be one reason.
| | Ryan Tunks | Posted on 6/23/2010 12:27:53 AM
Yeah, Chris, I dig that .... I'm just sayin' the cars are here. We have the teams. They just need to be persuaded to stay and race at home.
The Midwest Speedway Preservation Society
| | Ryan Tunks | Posted on 6/23/2010 12:31:12 AM
... on a Saturday night, that is.
Truthfully, I'd like to see Eagle race on Sunday nights. That is the traditional night of Lincoln Sprint Car racing since the days at the Beach.
The Midwest Speedway Preservation Society
| | Jensen_71 | Posted on 6/23/2010 7:53:37 AM
Put a right rear tire pressure rule in to play. Make it around 18-20 lbs. You'll unhook the car by putting that much pressure in there. Get a couple officials to check the pressure before the cars get pushed off and check them after the race. It would take a really cheap tool and not much time!
www.TigeJensen.com
| | dirttracker009 | Posted on 6/23/2010 8:22:20 AM
what about the purse money? How many years has the purses been the same? Numbers are dwindling in other classes also. Parts for these vehicles have not stayed the same but the purse money has. It is crazy to ask any racer to work a job all week then come to the track and win and still owe more than what he just brought home that night with simple maintenance bills for racing 1 night.
| | Moses | Posted on 6/23/2010 9:26:26 AM
For the sprint guys the lure of Knoxville is powerful. I think local tracks would have to step up big time to keep some teams home. Even then, the prestige just wouldn't be the same.
| | Eagle Pit Shack Guy | Posted on 6/23/2010 10:18:32 AM
Prestige or whatever you want to call it has GOT to be the lure, because financially it doesn't make sense. Tow 3 1/2 hours each way to MAYBE win more money?? $5 more for each pit pass, LOTS more wear and tear on the engine on that big 1/2 mile, extra fuel, etc. Doesn't compute in my book.
Take Ryan Roberts for instance; here are his finishes this year:
5/1/2010 12th
5/8/2010 15th
5/15/2010 5th
5/22/2010 8th
5/29/2010 5th
6/19/2010 2nd
Not sure of K-ville's payouts, but is running on average 7th worth the extra expenses?? Obviously so, or he wouldn't be doing it and neither would all of the other 20 some that go each week.
Look at the guys who go all the way to Albion to race their sprints; for what?? Like $250 to win (not sure of the purse so don't crucify me here). Tell me how that's fiscally responsible.
Most people race for the fun of it, because they aren't silly enough to think that they're going to make money off of it. How many sprint teams actually make money?? MAYBE 3 or 4 at the very outside. Drivers, yes...they can make a living but only because someone else foots the bill. Team owners don't fund teams hoping to profit either; they're too intelligent for that.
As for the purses, if you cannot find a true sponsor for any class then the money isn't there for increased purses. The track DOES have to make money people, or there won't be a track.
As for the lower car counts, how many cars weren't there this past weekend because of motor problems/money problems?? 2 or 3 that I can think of.
Going non-winged won't help either, because the haves will still outspend the have-nots. Tire rules won't help for the same reason. Teams WILL find a way to put the power to the ground.
It's like back when Karl Kinser was crew-chiefing; the saying was that "If Karl put a piece of fecal matter on the hood, so would everyone else". The ingenuity has pretty much been removed from sprint car racing, but the idea still holds. Someone will find a way to make a car faster, but at a cost.
Relax folks. History repeats itself, sad to say. But I do think we need to find a way to stop the rampant cost increases in ALL classes.
Eagle Raceway; the fastest 1/3-mile dirt track in the country.
Eagle Raceway's website
| | viper29 | Posted on 6/23/2010 10:28:00 AM
The purse... The rules... the economy... they are all factors and could be addressed to attempt to improve car count. The cost of getting to the track has gone up year after year yet tow money has not.. The average minimum bill for every car that shows no matter what class they run is around $100, the tow money has always been equal to the drivers entry fee... that just doesn't come close. I believe the purse for a sprint car feature win in 1998 was $1200 to win... hmmm, why then, 12 years later is it less??
The rules... Tires are often what people look at to try and curb weekly costs, but a pressure rule would be ludicrous at best. Pressure changes and build up are a big part of how drivers try to adapt and adjust, it is a low cost, easy to perform, way of making cars better (or worse) and the teams that have an understanding of it definitely can gain advantage without spending to win. The wing thing is mute for our type of racing. If you take it off you have changed the entire persona and appeal, it would come with wholesale changes in motors, tires, and even shocks and bars... so the cost would go all over the board, and in the end might even send more local teams down the road where wings still rule. You'll never stop the dollars from influencing the results so I think tighter rules enforcement of the current rules could be a viable answer, step up what gets routinely checked and tighten the existing "Grey" areas. The teams that can bring lots of spares are going to have some decided advantage when it comes to making it back week to week, but if the track officials can level some of the competition by being vigilant about catching the "benders" then you may attract a few "budget" minded weekly racers. That takes us back to purse and tow... It doesn't have to be so high as to pay for racing completely but currently it is terrible and seems to be a big problem for 95% of the tracks across the country. Its a complex problem and ultimately if it's not resolved we will be looking for something to do on Saturday nights.
The economy... just plain stinks and I have no answers for that. I'm glad we have a forum like this to toss around the topics and I am hopeful that it gets turned the right direction soon. Thanks for listening!!
Jeff Reed
Dont bump me, dont pass me, dont ride my ass
| | elwood | Posted on 6/23/2010 10:47:18 AM
I don't know why the local teams won't support Eagle on a regular basis, I have an idea why, but I will keep that to myself.
For us, when we went to Kville it was for the experience of running a big track. now though it is a matter of economics. When we we come to Eagle it cost us about 80 to 100 dollars in fuel, $100 in pitpasses, at least $225 for a new tire. that is not counting any maitenence items on the car. the start money at Eagle will not even put a dent in this. the other origanazations we have been racing with pay considerably more to win and start the feature.
With that being said, We will see you saturday night!
The Russells
Edited on: 6/23/2010 10:47:18 AM
elwood
| | sprint13f | Posted on 6/23/2010 10:51:06 AM
Im a die hard sprint car guy but to be honest I like racing a hobby stock so much more. I dont feel that you can be out spent. There are a ton of rules and sure there are some guys that bend or break them but for the most part they are followed. I can go any where in the country and race (imca anyway)and I dont have to worry that my motor is not good enough or my tires are too old. I can claim shocks, carbs and motors if I wish.
I started racing sprints when the "old" purse was around and it was better than it is now but i still would have ended up in the same place had it not. Its a hobby and fun and you will pay for it. Just a matter of how much.
hangloose
| | green13 | Posted on 6/23/2010 11:32:13 AM
I have noticed even knoxville has been hurting on car count AND attendance over the last few years. Now it has become apparent that even tracks subsidized by taxpayer dollars (i.e. Marion County Fairgrounds, Gage County, etc) are being asked by their fair boards "Show me da money!"
It takes a family to raise a child.
A RACING FAMILY!
| | sprintcar3 | Posted on 6/23/2010 12:21:47 PM
I raced at the first 360 race at midwest speedway, the rules, were pretty limited, the Idea was to get old cars out of the bushes and back on the track, and it worked, then we started running out of old cars, amazing enough now to be competitive you had to have the new car! We ran old tires that were laying around in warehouses and they glad to get rid of them, oop's no more old tires, now we got newer tires newer technology, We could actually hook em up, Then Fuel injection, aluminum heads, big wings, titanium this titanium that, ASCS, Aluminum wheels, needless to say you now have a Outlaw Car minus the aluminum block. My opinion is no matter what is done (rules changes) It will cost more money! A 305 rule is good, But all it does is lower purses because it is cheaper right?, well motor wise it is but car wise no! If you crash it still cost the same for the parts as it did before, There are alot of good and competitive engines on the market for reasonable money, unfortunatly you cannot stop technology. The tires are about the only thing you can change now to slow the cost, but the people that can afford new will still have new tires every night, Racing has always been that way and always will be, Money will almost always prevail, The purse At Eagle went down 25 % 4 years ago, costs have gone up , economy is in the drain, there is no simple answer, cheapen the cost of racing (without obsoleting what all the teams have now)
Every Rule change cost someone money,
All the rule changes in the past took a 3'000 dollar motor to 30,000 plus, 700 dollar rotors, 1500, dollar bolt kits,
2-3 thousand dollar cars to 15,000 dollars that bend if you look at um wrong, SO WHAT IS THE SOLUTION Hell I DON'T KNOW
| | Eagle Pit Shack Guy | Posted on 6/23/2010 12:55:26 PM
Thank you Mr. Parker. Spoken by a man who's not only been there, but done that.
Waiting to hear Blueboys take on this whole thing.
Eagle Raceway; the fastest 1/3-mile dirt track in the country.
Eagle Raceway's website
| | RedC | Posted on 6/23/2010 1:15:03 PM
If the consensus is that rules changes won't help reduce the costs, then it looks like the best answer is increase the purse.
"Lose the Wings..."
| | kmart | Posted on 6/23/2010 2:11:40 PM
Here is my question---what does IMCA do to have so many modifieds around here and they run for half the money.
| | Eagle Pit Shack Guy | Posted on 6/23/2010 2:32:39 PM
Okay RedC; just write a check for $10000 to the track and you will be the sponsor for the sprints for the rest of the year. Simple, and everyone's happy.
P.S. Don't be surprised if no more sprints show up for the extra money though.
Eagle Raceway; the fastest 1/3-mile dirt track in the country.
Eagle Raceway's website
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